Shamed ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells has admitted she was ‘concerned’ to receive an email from Alan Bates warning her many sub-postmasters were being wrongly pursued.
The 65-year-old businesswoman has begun her second day of evidence at the Horizon IT Inquiry into why hundreds of branch managers were wrongly prosecuted amid claims they stole from the business.
More than 700 subpostmasters were prosecuted for theft by the Post Office and given criminal convictions between 1999 and 2015 as Fujitsu’s faulty IT system, known as Horizon, made it appear as though money was missing at their branches.
Ms Vennells, who was chief executive at the company from 2012 to 2019, today told the inquiry she was ‘concerned’ after getting an email from campaigner Alan Bates claiming prosecutions by the Post Office ‘should never have taken place’.
The ordained priest said she had no inkling that subpostmaster convictions were unsafe in May 2013 despite Mr Bates’ email which said he was ‘surprised’ she had not offered to meet ‘bearing in mind what has been discovered so far’.
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells arrives to give her second day of evidence to the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry at Aldwych House, central London
The 65-year-old businesswoman arrives at Aldwych House, escorted by police officers, to give evidence for a second day at the Horizon IT scandal
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells on her second day of giving evidence to the inquiry at Aldwych House, central London
Alan Bates, former sub-postmaster and founder of the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance
Referring to the work of forensic accountants Second Sight in the email from May 21 2013, Mr Bates said: ‘Bearing in mind what has been discovered so far, I for one am surprised that we haven’t yet met to discuss the implications.
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‘Whilst I appreciate that the majority of the issues began under previous regimes and you have expressed a genuine willingness to address the concerns that JFSA (Justice For Subpostmaster Alliance) has been raising, these issues are still continuing.
‘I have little doubt that it is now feasible to show that many of the prosecutions that POL (Post Office Limited) have pressed home should never have taken place.’
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked former Post Office chief executive Ms Vennells: ‘Would you have been very concerned reading an email like this that the person representing a key stakeholder, JFSA, was saying that the prosecutions, and many of them, that the Post Office had brought, ought never to have taken place?’
She replied: ‘I was concerned to get the email from Alan, certainly. The point he was making about prosecutions was the point the JFSA made for a number of years – that wasn’t new news to me at this stage.’
Mr Beer continued: ‘Is that how you would have thought of it, that this is just Mr Bates saying something that he’s always said?’
The former Post Office boss replied: ‘No, not at all.’
Mr Beer then said: ‘Had you been given any inkling that anything had emerged that might undermine the safety of convictions?’ Ms Vennells responded: ‘No.’
Earlier today Ms Vennels was questioned on whether a deliberate choice was made to choose forensic accounting firm Second Sight over Deloitte to review independently the Horizon system because the former’s proposal was ‘much narrower in scope’ and ‘only looked at a sample of past cases’
Ms Vennells said in repsonse: ‘From a personal point of view, I would say that is absolutely not the case. I have no recollection of that at all.’
The inquiry later heard Alwen Lyons, former company secretary, emailed chief executive Paula Vennells in June 2012 expressing former Post Office general counsel Susan Crichton’s concerns about including former subpostmistress Seema Misra’s case in an independent review into the Horizon IT system.
Ms Misra, who ran a Post Office in West Byfleet, Surrey, was jailed in 2010 after being accused of stealing £74,000. She was pregnant at the time.
Ms Lyons wrote: ‘The issue that came to light with the list of MP cases was that they included the Mishra (Misra), you will remember the case and the publicity, she went to prison and had her baby whilst in there.
‘The husband got publicity through radio and press.
‘Susan’s anxiety, and she raised this at the meeting with Alice before you joined, was whether now contacting her to tell her we review the case would be a red rag to a bull.’
Asked if she shared Ms Crichton’s concerns that even contacting Ms Misra ‘would be a red rag to a bull’, Ms Vennells told the inquiry: ‘No.’
Paula Vennells is sworn in to the Horizon inquiry at Aldwych House on Wednesday
Post Office boss Paula Vennells gestures as she gives evidence to the inquiry at Aldwych House, central London on Wednesday
Yesterday Ms Vennells wept when questioned about subpostmasters being wrongly convicted, including Martin Griffiths who killed himself after he was accused of stealing money from the Post Office.
She became emotional again as she apologised for misleading MPs who were looking into constituents’ complaints about the faulty software.
And she fought back tears when recalling reading ‘disturbing’ evidence of the impact of the scandal on Post Office workers.
The 65-year-old said her mistakes would ‘live with me for ever.’
But she insisted she did not think there had been any miscarriages of justice until long after she left the organisation in 2019 – having previously told MPs the Post Office had ‘never lost a case’.
Ms Vennells, who served as chief executive for seven years, came face-to-face with victims at the public inquiry in central London, and had to wipe away tears as she opened her evidence with a short apology.
Turning to address the more than 100 campaigners present, she said: ‘I would just like to say – and I’m grateful for the opportunity to do this in person – how sorry I am for all that subpostmasters and their families and others who suffered as a result of all of the matters that the inquiry has been looking into for so long.
‘I followed and listened to all of the human impact statements and I was very affected by them. I am very, very sorry.’
In a 775-page statement to the inquiry, she said she wished to repeat her apologies to all those who ‘have suffered so much from this terrible miscarriage of justice’.
She added: ‘Their lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system. I am truly sorry and will so [sic] for the rest of my life.’
Ms Vennells had to return her CBE earlier this year after ITV’s acclaimed drama series Mr Bates Vs The Post Office brought the scandal – and her central role in it – to a new audience.
The ordained Anglican priest had refused to comment publicly since, but was taken to task by Jason Beer KC, lead lawyer to the inquiry, during her first of three full days in the witness box.
Ms Vennells wept as she apologised for telling the Commons business select committee in 2015 that the Post Office was successful in every court case against subpostmasters as it probed Horizon’s integrity.
Inquiry lawyer Mr Beer said: ‘Why were you telling parliamentarians every prosecution involving the Horizon system had been successful and had found in favour of the Post Office?’
Ms Vennells, becoming tearful and reaching for a tissue, said: ‘I fully accept now – excuse me…
‘The Post Office knew that (not every case was won). Personally, I didn’t know that and I’m incredibly sorry that that happened to those people, and to so many others.’
There were murmurs in the inquiry room as she broke down briefly.
The inquiry heard Ms Vennells had sought advice from senior colleagues ahead of her appearance before the MPs when she asked for assurances that the system could not be accessed remotely.
She was subsequently presented with briefing notes on how to respond to MPs, which stated she was to say there was no functionality to change transaction data.
But, if pushed on the issue, she could add that there in fact was, although ‘there are numerous test and checks including daily checks’.
She agreed with the inquiry chairman Sir Wyn Williams, who said the briefing note suggested Ms Vennells was being advised to ‘be very precise, very circumspect, and very guarded’ with her answers to MPs.
Ms Vennells also agreed with Mr Beer that it was a ‘serious issue’ for ‘folklore’ to develop within the Post Office, relating to incorrect claims about its 100 per cent success rate on prosecutions, that Horizon was faultless, and that remote access to the system was not possible – meaning errors were the result of the subpostmaster.
Mr Beer said: ‘Each of these things turn out to be false. How is it that on all of these critical issues, so many false statements were circulating within the Post Office?’
Ms Vennells said: ‘At the time they were not considered to be false statements. I didn’t believe any of those statements were folklore at all.’
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells is seen breaking down in tears as she gave evidence at the Horizon IT inquiry on Wednesday
Paula Vennells, former CEO of the Post Office cries as she gives evidence at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry on Wednesday
Crucial to Ms Vennells’ evidence was the extent to which she knew about Horizon’s failings, and when.
She drew laughter from a handful of those watching when she insisted that she believed the reassurances given to her by colleagues.
‘One of my reflections of all of this – I was too trusting,’ she said. ‘I did probe and I did ask questions.’
She said she was ‘disappointed’ that some detail ‘wasn’t shared’ with her. But she denied there was a ‘conspiracy’ to keep information from her. Mr Beer asked: ‘Was there a conspiracy at the Post Office which lasted for nearly 12 years involving a wide range of people, differing over time, to deny you information and to deny you documents and to falsely give you reassurance.’
Ms Vennells smiled briefly as she replied: ‘No, I don’t believe that was the case.’
She added: ‘I have been disappointed – particularly more recently listening to evidence at the inquiry – where I think I have learnt that people know more than perhaps they remembered at the time or I knew of at the time.
‘My deep sorrow in this is I think individuals, myself included, maybe didn’t see things, didn’t hear things. Conspiracy feels too far-fetched.’ She pointed the finger at unnamed ‘colleagues’ who ‘did know more information than was shared’.
The probe later was shown a text message exchange between Vennells and Dame Moya Greene in January 2024, after the ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office aired.
Ms Vennells, the former Post Office chief executive, said Dame Moya was suggesting that there was a conspiracy within the Post Office.
Dame Moya messaged: ‘When it was clear the system was at fault, the PO should have raised a red flag, stopped all proceedings, given people back their money and then tried to compensate them for the ruin this caused in their lives.’
Ms Vennells replied: ‘Yes I agree. This has/is taking too long Moya. The toll on everyone affected is dreadful.’
Dame Moya said: ‘I don’t know what to say. I think you knew.’
Ms Vennells responded: ‘No Moya, that isn’t the case.’
Dame Moya said: “I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I suggested you get an independent review reporting to you. I was afraid you were being lied to. You said the system had already been reviews multiple times. How could you have not known?’
Ms Vennells replied: ‘Moya, the mechanism for getting to the bottom of this is the inquiry. I’ve made it my priority to support it fully.’
Dame Moya later said: ‘I am sorry.. I can’t now support you.’
‘I have supported you. All these years.. to my own detriment. I can’t support you now after what I have learned.’
Dame Moya said: ‘I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I suggested you get an independent review reporting to you. I was afraid you were being lied to.
On Wednesday Ms Vennells also said she had no idea when she joined the company in 2007 that the Post Office was investigating its own staff, taking them to court, and trying to recover money from them.
She said: ‘I didn’t understand that the Post Office was bringing its own criminal investigations.
‘Investigations can be taken at all sorts of different levels. I certainly didn’t read into this that the Post Office was conducting criminal investigations to the level that I later understood.’
She said she did not appreciate the situation fully until 2012, when she became chief executive.
Text exchange between former Post Office boss Paula Vennells and former Royal Mail boss Moya Greene
As Vennells spoke, postmasters watching the inquiry livestream from Fenny Compton could be seen shaking their heads and laughing
Ms Vennells said: ‘I should have known and I should have asked more questions. I and others who also didn’t know should have dug much more deeply into this.
‘It was a serious mistake that I didn’t understand before 2012 the extent of what this meant.’
She said she thought Post Office workers were instead prosecuted by ‘external authorities’.
She said she and other colleagues ‘were surprised’ when they learned about the prosecutions by the organisation.
Sir Wyn said it was ‘extremely surprising’ that news ‘did not filter through’ to Ms Vennells about high-profile convictions.
The suicide of subpostmaster Mr Griffiths caused Ms Vennells to break down at the inquiry.
Mr Griffiths died after walking in front of a bus while being pursued for a shortfall, contributed to by an armed robbery at his branch in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire.
The inquiry was shown an email in autumn 2013 in which campaigner Mr Bates said the Post Office had ‘driven him to suicide’.
Ms Vennells wept as she recalled another case of a Post Office colleague who took his own life.
But in an internal email, Ms Vennells subsequently asked: ‘I know (sadly from experience in business and personally) that there is rarely a simple explanation for such deaths.
‘Can you let me know what background we have on Martin. I had heard but have yet to see a formal report that there were previous mental health issues and potential family issues.’
Asked by inquiry lawyer Mr Beer if she was asking her team to ‘dig’ into Mr Griffiths’ records, Ms Vennells replied: ‘I’m so sorry. I had as chief executive to pass this information on to group executives and board colleagues.
‘Mr Bates said the Post Office was to blame, but I did know from previous examples… it doesn’t matter, I shouldn’t have said it. I shouldn’t have used these words.’
She described Mr Bates’ accusations of blame as ‘unhelpful’.
She added: ‘The Post Office needed to respond to this properly and at that stage I had no understanding as to what had gone on.’
Martin Griffiths, 59, who took his own life in 2013 after he was falsely suspected of stealing money from a Post Office in Ellesmere Port
Ms Vennells said she believed there had been no miscarriages of justice – wrongly prosecuting any subpostmaster for false accounting due to faults with Horizon – by the time she left the organisation in 2019, four years after prosecutions ceased.
Mr Beer asked: ‘Did you believe right up until the point at which you left the business, there had been no ‘miscarriages of justice?’
Ms Vennells said: ‘I was told multiple times … that there had been no evidence found. I was told that nothing had been found.’
Asked again if she believed when she stepped back from the Post Office that there had been no miscarriages of justice, Ms Vennells replied: ‘I think that’s right.’
Mr Beer asked: ‘Were you clear that nothing had gone wrong in your time at the Post Office, so far as Horizon was concerned and the prosecution of subpostmasters was concerned?’
Ms Vennells said: ‘No, not at all, there were problems with Horizon all the way through my tenure.’
Seema Misra, who was pregnant when she was jailed after being accused of stealing £74,000 from her branch in Surrey, said she disputed Ms Vennells’ claims that there was no conspiracy preventing the truth about Horizon’s failings coming out.
Ms Misra, who was present at the inquiry, said: ‘It’s a cover-up and denial, it’s still a cover-up, that’s what my take is.’
She added: ‘How on earth did authorities in high positions not know how the company works?’
Lee Castleton, who was pursued for a £25,000 shortfall at his branch in 2004 which left him bankrupt, said: ‘She’ll never shed as many [tears] as I have, I’m afraid, or my family, or the rest of the victims.’
Mark Kelly, who was a subpostmaster in Swansea from 2003 to 2006, said: ‘All these years she could have made an apology like that. Why did she have to wait until today to do that?’